Building High-Performance Teams: Lessons from Rugby

The fact that we have to have this conversation is important for us to grow as a team and as an individual. And I think being able to be coachable, we call it coachable, or we have to be able to learn fast. And I think being coachable and learning fast means that you acknowledge and you accept, and then you move forward. So I think it's important to have tough conversations, because that's the only way that you'll get that, you call it a rotten apple, and, I think to get that person to be back in line. Alright.

Welcome back to the scrum.com fintech arena. This is the ultimate podcast for fintech leaders eager to stay at the forefront of industry change. Today, we're gonna be doing something slightly different, but incredibly, incredibly relevant. We're gonna be diving into the world of high performing sports teams. And that's at scrums.com, we often talk about the parallels between successful teams, or successful tech teams rather and high performance sports teams.

And today, we have a fantastic opportunity to explore just that connection with someone who lives with each and every day and, who's there to guide us than Mario Lowe, the captain of the Lions rugby team. Mario, thank you so much for joining us today. Oh, awesome, Chase. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

It's, I think, an interesting topic. And like you mentioned, rather than it just being in sports, it's it's all over in every single company and every single aspect of life. So, really fortunate to be able to have the conversation with you. Oh, thanks for your time. No doubt you've got a lot happening in the middle of the UFC.

And, you know, as a South African, I'm super passionate about sports and, of course, in particular rugby. Right? It's it's advanced through our van, and I've always been inspired by you guys, the players. Right? And you guys have a constant drive towards our almost complete perfection.

Right? Whether that's whether that's physically or mentally, you know, every single day, you you absolutely have to test the limit to to keep ahead of your competition. And, I think what what makes this discussion so exciting is that everyone understands the feeling of being a part of a team. Right? They understand the importance of what it takes for teams to function well.

And, of course, today, we really wanna focus on the high performing side of those teams. And what's interesting about you, Morris, is, you know, you you've played, with a number of the South African franchises. You know, they've been playing, and you then headed over to the Sharks, and and, and now you're key to the lines as you set up. You know? So you you ultimately, the way I see it, you've you've experienced many different team cultures.

You even started as a as a as a flanker in the fourth, and then moved into into the back line where he specialized now. But at first, the first question that I have for you, Miles, is as a captain of a major franchise, you know, you extend the dynamics of of high performance and what it takes to be a high performing team. In your opinion and I know that this is gonna be difficult to do, but what do you think is the most crucial element in building a truly successful team? Yeah. That is a very tough question because it's there's actually so many aspects, and I think each team tries to find the key towards, cohesion.

And I think, that's that's you know, I just got to the lines. It's something we spoke about. There were a lot of guys, that came in. And, at that stage, you know, we the lines, we weren't winning a lot. And so, we spoke about the division a lot, and we tried to get to a point where, how do you build that provision?

And I think in, like, many other teams, many many other companies, you have a strat meeting where you sit down and you get alignment from top to bottom to make sure that everyone goes towards the same direction where they'd be, online off the field with the way you do things. And I think there is a good analogy around that as to how you make the boat go faster, and it comes from, a rowing team that was underestimated and underrated. And and then, how how were they gonna do things in the boat and off the boat to make sure that they can make the boat go faster. And, you know, each team comes up with how they what they identify themselves as the DNA. We call it our DNA.

What is our DNA that we wanna bring apart on everyone collectively buying into? And that's why you have a start meeting to get everyone aligned and finding out the DNA that makes this team, and what other people see from the outside. So for us at the Lions, it's we mentioned three things. So the Lions is as a whole, as a brand, are great. And the brand needs to be, exploited through your DNA.

And our DNA is to be tough. And being tough doesn't mean just being tough on the field. And we we also realize and recognize that Johannesburg is a tough environment, that the people work hard. Coming from Durban, you can actually see the hustle that actually goes on and around in and around Durburg. So we speak a lot about toughness.

Then we speak about, tempo, because Alliance, we we say, you know, we are brand of rugby that teams, they they don't want them to live with us. We play at an altitude that is higher than most other teams in the country in and around the world as well. So we say we wanna make sure that we are tough and that the tempo that we play at, people can't live with us. And that is in every single thing we do, whether it be on the field and off the field, being tough is being mentally tough, environmental training, and all of those things that come together bring tempo. Then we speak about togetherness, and I think that's the cohesion we usually speak about is to see that when you see a team really connecting and having cohesion, that's when players are together.

And people and management and your on and off the field, there's togetherness. So we call it triple t, tough, temporal, togetherness. And we rely on our DNA, and everything we do centered around our DNA to make sure that we have cohesion to have it on the field and off the field. And that's what we have at the Lions. And I think it goes obviously much deeper than that, but I I think there will be some more, things that I'll answer along the questions that we probably can't see.

Amazing, Miles. Thank you. I like that the DNA and and the triple p is absolutely, I think, something that you could all use, in business and in life. And so thank you for sharing that. And and it it sort of reminds you of, you know, the the when when I looked back, 2018 and, you know, the highly very passionate supporters, of of of rugby and and in particular, in this example, you know, the Springboks.

They were in a very, very bad place that was in 2018, at the beginning of 2018, and, fan burning jerseys, and I'm just going completely completely, wild in terms of in terms of the pressure that sits on you guys is is insurmountable, right, as, professional sportsmen. And I think that DNA is really on the and that final one togetherness, and and it the first thing that comes to mind is that Strong-up Together sort of campaign that's been boxed within. And then being a part of a vision that's that's bigger than just yourself, which is quite an incredible thing and and people forget, you know, when you when you're in the day to day. You know, you you you're very hyper focused on on a goal when you actually can't realize that the impact is is is a lot bigger than just your your salt, which which leads me to remaining focused. Right?

You have all of these distractions, people writing news articles about you, like you're saying good things, sometimes saying terrible things. As an individual within a team, how do you, in the Haynes, focus on on your goals with all of these distractions? Yeah. I think that's a tough one, and that's always been a topic, in and around how to block out white noise from the outside to to be able to focus on what you've been doing. And, you know, I think consistency is probably the the thing that comes through the most is, what do you do on a regular basis to make sure that you block out loud noise and that you do the things that you do on your off days, like recover, the mental health stuff.

And each time, that's the responsibility also on yourself because we do have conversations and meetings around, that mental space before a game because that's important. Although each guy, it's not so the same. Not each person's the same. Everyone's different. And, I think there's a big responsibility on yourself to be able to make sure that you are in the right mental space for whatever is necessary, whether it be you're not at the right performance where you need to be.

What is it that is lacking? Is it actual hard work, or is it maybe less work and more mental toughness that you need to go through in terms of, learning more things around in and around the game or learning more about yourself. And I think once you start realizing who you are and what you what you do and what triggers you, and I think that's when you realize that that white noise that comes through won't even bother you because you know where you stand in that type of environment. And I think, each child, like I said, has a responsibility, and everyone does their own things on and off the field. For me, it's enjoying you know, I enjoy yoga.

So I enjoy that sense of still moving the body, and having a distraction other than just, like, the way you physically have to focus on that. And other than yoga, it's great work. Because your great work is you're being so in the moment. Cold plunge, and, I think all of those things altogether is a way to bring you more in the moment because you tend to when you read something that isn't good about you, you tend to be distracted and takes you away from what is really the most important thing. So consistently doing those little things to make sure you block out white noise, and you will be be exposed to it.

It is just part of the game. And I think it's important to listen to the right people. So that'd be the coaches, your teammates, and, your family. You know? If you listen to those people, those are really the people that actually care about you as a person, and and that's where you can actually take feedback from.

And it's never about the way you react. It's always about the way you respond to it. So it's easy to listen to that white noise and react badly to it. But if you respond to it good enough, you'll get back to what you really know is important. Amazing.

Yeah. Obviously, we covered a lot of ground there, and I think all all super important because, you know, more often than not, team or company culture is, more heavily impact, at least this is what I've been, more heavily impacted by, you know, that one brought an apple, so to say, and and can can compete the split. So I suppose, you know, when someone isn't in the right mind frame mindset and and maybe they're arriving late to practice, You know? How how how does the coaching staff and, ultimately, the leaders like yourself do with that, you know, if I relate it back to a business type thing, you look at someone like, I don't know, Elon Musk, You know, he comes in and and and fires half of Twitter, just because he says you're not working hard enough. You know?

What is that culture like in in a professional high performing team? Like I also said, earlier about it being individuals and individuals being so different and different characters, different belief systems. So I think it is still important to have that form of discipline, that, like I said earlier, making the boat go fast on. If you are in the team and you bought into the system, because you decided to come here or you decided to be here, Then you decided to to live by as a whole of the DNA of what it is that you're going towards. And I think, we so, yes, there are sometimes things that don't go as planned because you run late or something like that.

There's been more I've been in multiple teams where, systems implemented as being different. So, usually, I think people, tend to respond the best when there's money involved. So whether you miss a physio appointment or you miss a rehab session or you miss a or you're late for a session, I think it is definitely different. But in some aspects, there are consequences for that. So it would be you miss a physio session.

You've you're getting $500. You know? And you maybe that first five hundred is, like, okay. But then if you if you calculate that to a few times, you know, it ends up being a lot. And then after that, it becomes a thing of, but, now it's going further than just money now.

It's such a a thing of, warnings and things like that. And I think, we tend to keep it lighthearted because, we know it's there are a lot of different factors that are in play that makes those things not always possible. So what we also wanted started doing eventually as we call the swim wheel. So it would be if you're late, if you whether it be five minutes, one minute, thirty seconds, it then you would spin a wheel. And it would start something fun like, teledove or dance or, buy your unit a coffee each guy.

So and it's not always fun doing it in front of 50 people. So, you tend to when you see that clock, you actually come and you you start running towards your session. And it makes it life hard work, but, also, it's not something you wanna do. So, and then I think, you know, once it really becomes a problem, leaders actually tend to pull you aside and start having serious conversations. But it comes down to that, you know, is are you making the boat go faster?

Because, if you've seen any formal documentary around, rowers, if there's one a little bit behind pace, the boat goes skewed, the boat goes slower. So it's it is truly about what was it that we are doing collectively to make this go go faster. And it takes an individual, and then after that, it becomes a provision thing. So, you're not just letting yourself down. You're letting other people down.

And people tend to push you out of the system without you even realizing it. And that is a really scary feeling because you can you can feel it. There's no doubt about it. And I think the one thing about humanity is we enjoy being together, being as a group, and working together. I think you get, doing something for someone else.

You get that euphoria, that that that great feeling that, I just can't do something for someone else. And I think not all people tend to have that feeling when they serve someone else. Maybe they serve themselves, and they get that feeling. And I think it's about realizing how to work with different people in, because we are such a much different so much different in all aspects of life. So, it's about, I think, how do you communicate to certain people?

Because I can speak to someone in a very high, swearing, tone in voice, and they would act or respond very well, And someone else would completely shout and not speak to you again. So I think it's important to to start realizing how to communicate with different people. And and I think that's when you start getting people to buy in is when you speak their language. I love that, spin the wheel aspect. I think, we might we might think they're in something there.

And there's you know, there there there is absolutely a little bit of fun and and naturally a pedestrian to a difficult discussion with leadership. But, it's always difficult to find something, some sort of life punishment that that sort of at least just says, hey. Yes. You know, you you you you you you're not in line with that. So thanks for sharing that.

But it probably brings up the next point. The healthy conflict is a incredibly difficult thing to to come about. Right? And and I'm I'm sure it's gotta be with your DNA as as as the line. And the only disagreement, maybe, you know, your your captain vice captain sitting and saying, you know, I disagree with that call on the field.

Right? You you on the field and and this is it, or or maybe there's a disagreement somewhere else. Maybe office. And, honest communication is important. Right?

It needs to be open. It needs to be honest. And and I'm a I'm a strong believer in, if if this is how I'm feeling about the situation, it's better to talk about it. Do you guys at the line share similar idea, or or how do you guys handle this agreement and conflicts at the line? That's very true.

And I believe and I think it starts from the top, and that is where I think honesty needs to come from initially is from the top because when you're honest and true towards each other, I think tough conversations can it's not easy for some people, and some people tend to get very defensive. I think being able to take criticism, accept it as well, and, then acknowledge the fact that you don't know everything, that you did make a mistake. And I think that's one thing. Because let's say after a tough game, there were some errors made. Everyone tends to say, no one this is a team sport.

We can't point fingers. Everyone makes mistakes. And acknowledging that you made the mistake, I think, already puts everyone else at ease that I have to say, listen. I fed up. Yes.

I won't necessarily say too much now. I made a mistake here. I I I will be better next time. And then then what actions do I do that connect with what I just said? Do I actually fix what I did wrong?

Is it a skill error? Is it a, was I just too tired? Was I lazy? So, yeah, I I think for us, it's really being honest with each other that we, didn't pick up and and how do we respond from each other like that? Because in a game, there's no time to point fingers.

Otherwise, you're slamming down the polls. It is in that moment, you have to respond, and you have to back each other up initially. It has to be a collective fix it area. So there's no pointing fingers at that stage. After the game, you start having those tough conversation.

Listen, mate. You were late here. Why were you late? I'm sorry. I missed the call, or I didn't do that.

Or the guy tends to be quiet and not acknowledges the state. Then it's also that form of the person's not really wanting to engage in that tough conversation. But I think tough conversations is always necessary because it really builds growth. And we can for me, having a tough conversation is I can truly feel it here in my chest. I can feel this isn't a nice conversation, but I know that the fact that we have to have this conversation is important for us to grow as a team and as an individual.

And I think being able to be coachable, we call it coachable, or you have to be able to learn fast. And I think being coachable and learning fast means that you acknowledge and you accept, and then you move forward. So I think it's important to have tough conversations, because it's the only way that you'll get that, you call it a rotten apple. And, I think to get that person to be back in line because now you're not just compromising yourself, you're compromising your team. And at the end of the day, you're not costing yourself a job.

You're costing the teammate his job as well. So, it is it is a tough thing to to do, but honesty is truly so important at this level because there's no other way around it. Brilliant. And and, you know, you've you've taken us through a lot of concepts, ideas, and and and once again, returning back to that. Looking back at your career, which is you've still got many years ahead of you.

Right? And what what do you think is the most to make that, basically. Brilliant. And what what do you think is the most successful or significant lessons rather, that you've learned about leadership? Right?

Could it could have been a particular point in time where you said, wow. Now I've learned, to, I've learned a lot from this particular example or or, you know, you just have, over the years, have learned something to say, look. This is this is my most important aspect of reading a team, and ultimately creating success with team runners. So, yeah, I think there's a few, like, key things for me. I think one of the first ones for me was that working hard and being prepared are the two non negotiables.

That's one those are the two things that are totally in your control every single day. Whether whether it be prepared for meeting, being prepared on the field, off the field, physically and mentally, seeing things that needs to be seen to and that is purely just being able to be prepared and working hard. Those are the two first things that I learned in my career that I thought was nonnegotiables for me. Then from a leadership point of view, I thought that you don't always have to do it yourself. The relying on others and doing knowing what they do well is giving responsibility to others to also help and communicate and make sure that they specialize in that department and choosing the right people to give them the responsibility to take that unit forward.

And then when he takes that unit forward, we collectively, as a team, go forward. So those things three things so far. Then I think the other next thing for me is making sure those things three things so far. Then I think the other next thing for me is making sure that every person you approach, you can learn something from. Never think that just by looking at a person or thinking in the role that they are or where they come from, they don't necessarily have something.

So I think you can learn something from every single person every single day. And being open to that, I think you will learn a lot more than you can expect. So those four things are just minor aspects that I think are completely in your control. And I think we tend to sometimes want to look at things that aren't in our control. And if you can look at things that are completely in your control by just being prepared, working hard, making sure other people have responsibility, not just yourself, and then learning from others.

I think if you are a person that can be coachable, like I said, or learn from others, and if you can learn fast. I think it's important to be able to learn fast. Because if you can learn fast, it means you can apply things a lot quicker, and then the bug goes faster. Wow, That was that was incredible. And no wonder no wonder you, in leadership roles here every day, and that is that is that is proper.

Oh, thank you. It's a it's a lot of impact in there. Thank you. And last question, I've been sorry to interrupt. Sorry to interrupting you now.

I think, it's that exact point with, what I meant about with the last thing that I said about learning from others, and I think that's if you can learn and and we we tend to, actually mentioned something to us the other day. We called about we called something about motion. And you can look at motion in two meanings. Motion can mean being in motion going forward, or you could just be going through the motions. And going through the motions is not the one you want.

You wanna be able to be in motion on going forward. And I think, that is also just something that you it's a key thing to be to learn. And if you can just take that one word as well as motion and and applying it in the right way, I think we're going forward. Well, thank you, Marius. I mean, that's the perfect place to, to end this episode.

Very, very insightful. Thank you. And thank you very much for for joining us when this comes at constant tech arena, and thank you to our listeners for for tuning in. Mario, it's a special thank you to you, man. And thanks for sharing your expertise, giving us a deeper understanding of, you know, how these topics are impacting your life.

And and I think, first importantly, how that impacts our day to day lives, not even being in the individual space. We've touched on a lot of, you know, what it takes. It's, there is, in fact, maybe an iron team because you need to be, in front of your own your own destiny. Right? And and by inspiring others and committing and and hard work and doing whatever that you can, drive the the culture of a team, basically in its in its entirety.

So thank you so much. And, and, hopefully, we'll we'll have you on board in in in the the months that come. And, if our listeners are out there, if you found today's conversation valuable and you wanna stay ahead of the change, please subscribe to our podcast. And, until next time, join us when we uncover more details around business, fintech, and financial insights and program. Have a great day.

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